In support of freedom
Out From Under has taken a stand against the Witanagemot Club. He has taken a stand for me.
The reason he took a stand for me is because Witanagemot Club refused my ‘application’ to join because I am a supporter of the BNP even though I support their aim of an English Parliament.
This stand meant that he has left the Witanagemot Club and as a result he will probably have less people visiting his blog.
I ask you all, in support of freedom to add Out From Under to your blogroll if you don’t already have them.
85 comments:
Thanks for your support!
It is interesting that you have Martine Martin as the blog of the week at the end of November, considering all the abuse she has received from the BNP. I hope you will encourage all those of similar opinions to you, to treat others with differing opinions with respect.
I think you will find I treat everyone with respect. some of my blogs of the week are liberals like ellee seymour and conservatives like Martine Martin. The majority hold similar opinions to me though.
I don't know of any abuse that Martine Martin has been given but I do know that he sometimes rubbishes the BNP.
I wasn't saying you didn't treat others with respect. I was commenting on the fact Martine has received abuse from other members of the BNP. She makes comments on the BNP - yes - but we are all entitled to our opinions, but when those opinions are underscored with racism, then I will do my very best to expose what the BNP is; as racist party
I was commenting on the fact Martine has received abuse from other members of the BNP
I can't recall her commenting on any abuses from the BNP. Can you direct me to it?
then I will do my very best to expose what the BNP is; as racist party
Really? How many times have you been to a BNP branch meeting?
Martine has received abuse from the BNP as I have spoken to her personally about it, but with good humour, she passes it off as 'water off a ducks back.' So I cannot direct you to it.
Nick Griffin is a very intelligent man, and he must have written the BNP guide, 'How to respond to those who disagree with us.' I have never been to a BNP branch meeting, and I am sure if I did you would be on your best behaviour. Look at what you have written, especially about Romanians and Bulgarians and look at the responses you allowed on your blog. That is all the evidence I need to prove you are racist.
I have never been to a BNP branch meeting, and I am sure if I did you would be on your best behaviour.
Like always...
Look at what you have written, especially about Romanians and Bulgarians
What have I written that could be considered racist? Saying we don't want anymore immigrants over here?
and look at the responses you allowed on your blog. That is all the evidence I need to prove you are racist.
I am a supporter of free speech. As long as it is not spam it is allowed. How is being pro free speech suddenly racist?
Very clever, but you know you are a racist, just as much as I do. Just be honest.
I know what I am. I am against immigration and I am a supporter of free speech. Neither of which makes me a racist.
Just ask my friend from Iran and it doesn't make me a hypocrite for being friends with an immigrants because I am against immigration and not immigrants.
Very clever again. If you are so opposed to immigration, why don't you deport yourself. I can bet you are an immigrant to this country, just as much as I am. Do you oppose UK immigration in to the US? Do you oppose British citizens moving to Spain and France?
Very clever again
You seem to have a low threshold for cleverness.
If you are so opposed to immigration, why don't you deport yourself
Why would I do that?
I can bet you are an immigrant to this country
I was born in this country. I have lived in North East England all my life.
Do you oppose UK immigration in to the US? Do you oppose British citizens moving to Spain and France?
I am not bothered about other countries. I live in this country so this country is the country that concerns me. However those countries have the same right to control none citizens going into their country.
I have a low threshold for cleverness? Perhaps I am confusing cleverness with cunning.
You and I both know if we go back in to our history, we are both immigrants. I too was born in the North East of England. Bishop Auckland, Co. Durham, to be precise.
Let me ask you a question. Do you oppose immigration from the US to the UK?
You and I both know if we go back in to our history, we are both immigrants.
you mean our ancestors like mother, grandmother, great grandmother etc?
Yes my nanna was an immigrant from Norway and she married someone from Ireland in 1946. My nanna was a performer on stage in norway (trapeze). my grandad was a soldier. I am neither of these. Just because an ancestor was an immigrant doesn't mean I am an immigrant and just because an ancestor was a soldier doesn't mean I am a soldier.
Do you oppose immigration from the US to the UK?
Yes. I oppose it from anywhere.
If you oppose immigration from anywhere, you oppose your family history.
If an American wants to move permanantly to the UK, is that wrong? If they have something to offer this country, are we to sit back and refuse it on ideological grounds?
If you oppose immigration from anywhere, you oppose your family history
That is bs and you know it.
I oppose immigration now. I don't care about immigration 60 years ago when it was relatively small compared to now.
Mass immigration has too many drawbacks for me to be in support of it.
If an American wants to move permanantly to the UK, is that wrong?
It is not wrong for them to want to move. Actually moving on the otherhand causes many problems.
you see immigrants are like raindrops. Individually they are ok, there is no harm but when there are many they can cause a flood and lots of damage.
If they have something to offer this country, are we to sit back and refuse it on ideological grounds?
You are assuming that they have something to offer which in most cases is simply not true and in the cases that it is true employers can easily train a brit to take up that role.
Please look at the real figures. Immigration is not a problem in this country. Many immigrants offer skills that are in short supply in this country.
Yes we do have problems with illegal migration, but please do not tarnish the majority of migrants who simply want to make a better life for themselves.
And if you think we can train British people for some of the jobs, you are deluded. Unfortunately, some British people talk very well, but they are very poor when it comes to action. It pains me to say it, but it's true.
Please look at the real figures. Immigration is not a problem in this country
I have looked at the real figures. immigration doesn't just damage this country it also damages the country the immigrants come from. you should be the one that looks at the figures.
Many immigrants offer skills that are in short supply in this country.
No they don't. Many are unskilled and those that are skilled are just replacing brits who are unwilling to work for such low wages. why should they have to work as slaves?
Yes we do have problems with illegal migration, but please do not tarnish the majority of migrants who simply want to make a better life for themselves.
I have no problem with the immigrants themselves. Anyone wants a better life for themselves. It is immigration and not immigrants that I have a problem with
And if you think we can train British people for some of the jobs, you are deluded.
No I am not. Most brits are willing to work just not for the pittance that they get at present. Brits have to compete with eastern european labour who are willing to work for sometimes half as much as the average brit is willing to work who cannot work for such low wages because they couldn't afford it because they have families in this country whereas the poles and other eastern europeans that come over here for the most part leave their families behind and can live 10 workers to a house which makes the rent much cheaper for them.
AA said:
"I will do my very best to expose what the BNP is; as racist party."
As usual, in addition to the poor grammar, not a shred of evidence is provided anywhere, only the customary unsubstantiated pc slogans in the follow-up posts.
A great many African and Asian countries in the world are populated essentially by their indigenous races only.
No-one accuses these nations of being racist.
Why is the BNP 'racist' if it simply wants the same for Britain?
Moreover, non-white Britons, in proportion to their numbers:
1. Generate only half the GDP they should.
2. Are responsible for 2-3 the amount of crime that an equivalent white Brit population would commit.
3. Are over 100 times more likely to kill a white Briton than the reverse.
4. Cost the British tax payer a net £55,000,000,000 a year or about 5% of GDP, a sheer waste.
As for the on-going social cost of immigration, Ashley Mote in Overcrowded Britain reports:
Folkestone-Dover, 1990s – to the present:
“Tourism to the area halved, house prices plummeted, and shopkeepers effectively waged war to protect their properties and stock against pilfering and damage. Girls cannot go out for fear of their safety. Some of the locals still live permanently behind locked doors while others have upped and left."
Unfortunately, too many individuals are like you, AA. They welcome this abominable state of affairs.
You would do well to read Ashley Mote's book and Do We Need Mass Immigration? by Anthony Browne, who, btw, is no more of a BNP supporter than you are.
AA,
A conservative view? If you are what passes for a conservative these days then no wonder people are turning to the BNP in their droves.
Aren't 'Conservatives' supposed to fight for the 'conservation' of our way of life? Nothing has done more to undermine our way of life -particularly as far as the right to free speech is concerned - than decades of mass immigration.
I used to vote Conservative, but not any more. They are a dying party, like Nu-Lab whose membership has halved in just 10 years.
You multiculti fascists are out of touch with the majority of indigenous British voters; no-one ever voted for multiculturalism yet you call the BNP racist for giving the electorate the opportunity to reject it. The only reason the BNP are struggling to gain power is because of people like you who stoop to crying 'racism' for lack of an intelligent alternative to BNP policies.
Do you think there should be a limit to immigration?
Where is it carved in stone that us so-called racists are any less intelligent, civilised or decent as you holier-than-thou pro immigration fascists?
"Birds of a feather flock together" and no amount of childish PC name calling will ever change that!
Long live the BNP.
Alanorei: It wasn't poor grammar; just a typo. My apologies.
Like many people, I watched the undercover documentary on the BNP, and I recall many racist remarks. 'Twat some Pakis' was one of them. Although I accept that not everyone in the BNP is racist, the is a strong undercurrent of racism. So when I am told I do not have a shred of evidence to support my argument, I disagree, however there are racists in all walks of life and all political parties.
What we have to do is separate the issues of planned, legal immigration, illegal immigration and asylum. If Britain has a skill shortage in any particular area and people from overseas can fill that gap, then immigration is right. That does not mean we should not try and train our citizens. However, companies cannot wait for people with necessary skills; they need them now.
Illegal immigration is wrong and those found here should be removed immediately. I have no problem with that.
As far as asylum is concerned, Britain will and should continue to offer asylum to those in genuine fear for their life. I do think though there are too many people being granted asylum who do not fit this category.
Bfb: I have never been called a fascist before and I find it rather amusing. In answer to your question, yes I do think there should be a limit on immigration. That is sensible. What you have also got to remember is many UK citizens choose to work and retire in other countries, so it is not simply a case of everyone comes to Britain and no-one leaves. I also have a question for you. Why is it when we talk about immigration that we also talk about multiculturalism? There are many people from other western countries who live and work here.
Finally, you cannot turn back the clock. I know it is not the policy of the BNP to remove immigrants who are already settled here. There have been many mistakes in the mass immigration to these shores and if we could turn back the clock there are many things we would do differently. What we have to do now is make Britain work, control the flow of immigration (although with EU policy that is impossible as far as EU countries are concerned) and concentrate on building a prosperous nation for everyone. That is the sort of Conservative I am. I want a prosperous future, solving the problems that are with us now and not keep harping back to the past
If Britain has a skill shortage in any particular area and people from overseas can fill that gap, then immigration is right.
It might be right temporarily but they can still train a Brit while they temporarily employ a foreigner.
The BNP kind of agree with you:
http://www.bnp.org.uk/candidates2005/manifesto/manf3.htm
Those illegal immigrants who truthfully declare their illegal status to the authorities during the registration period will be able to claim, in the case of skilled and key workers, extended leave to remain in the United Kingdom as long as they are benefiting the UK economy and stay as residents until such time as we have had time to train British personnel to replace them.
As far as asylum is concerned, Britain will and should continue to offer asylum to those in genuine fear for their life.
There are no genuine asylum seekers in this country. Asylum seekers should be going to the first safe country closest to them. If they want safety they wouldn't be hopping over a dozen safe countries to get here.
I also have a question for you. Why is it when we talk about immigration that we also talk about multiculturalism?
Because multiculturalism is a consequence of mass immigration!
Dear oh dear...what have I stumbled upon?
Pains me to read some of this.
The BNP have no support from me.
And I have to agree wholeheartedly with "a conservative view" (now there's something, as a liberal, I thought I would never do)
Had I known there was an active BNP member on Blogpower I don't think I would have been so quick to join.
It's just a pity "you don't know me" that the BNP wasn't around when your Norwegian & Irish ancestors arrived here.
You might have learned a little humilty.
Had I known there was an active BNP member on Blogpower I don't think I would have been so quick to join.
As a liberal you should support free speech which it seems you don't. It seems your aims also conflict with the blogpower manifesto too.
Why does it matter what party I support?
Immigration wasn't a big problem as it is now. If I was living in the late 40s I probably wouldn't think immigration was such a big deal but things change and now immigration does not benefit anyone except for the rich.
http://defendingtheblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/open-letter-to-small-blogger.html
the above link is their manifesto. maybe you should have read it before joining especially number 2.
Bfb: We don't have mass immigration like that anymore. Immigration in to the UK today and multiculturalism are two different things. They weren't in the past, but time has moved on.
We don't have mass immigration like that anymore.
What fucking planet are you from? Immigration has more than trebled since Labour came to power.
Unbelievable ignorance!
Immigration in to the UK today and multiculturalism are two different things.
Are they fuck!
but time has moved on.
According to the following poll results you are talking absolute bollocks (not that you will take the trouble to visit the URL's).
http://bfbwwiii.blogspot.com/2006/10/polls-shows-hostility-to-immigration.html
http://www.euractiv.com/en/mobility/big-citizens-trust-governments-immigration/article-158942
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:bU8nS4VhEskJ:ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb63/eb63_exec_uk.pdf+immigration+polls+in+the+UK&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=28
http://www.mori.com/polls/2003/migration.shtml
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=602872004
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1928559,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2320662,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1993597.stm
Feel free to post some URL's contradicting the above...(-:
(And that goes to puddlebrain as well)
Bfb: If you would like to me see your point of view then don't hurl abuse at me. I have opinions, just as you have opinions. When I comment on BNP blogs, I always receive abuse of this kind. You have a right to free speech, but please for the sake of everyone; don't abuse it.
best to expose what the BNP is; as racist party
AA (Conservative): may I remind you that when you refer to someone as a 'racist' you don't mean it as a complement...you mean it as an insult.
If you insult me I reserve the right to insult you back.
Do you have a problem with that?
Before you lecture me with your 'holier than thou' sentiments, consider my right to insult you in response to the insults you levelled at me (as a BNP supporter).
As a Nationalist I do not resort to mindless insults to deter people from voting BNP. Can you say the same (regarding the Tory Party)?
As regards the BNP being 'racist' I challenge you to post some evidence to that effect.
Or forever hold your tongue!
PS: I'm waiting for some URL's....if you wouldn't mind!
It's just that we BNP folk are always being accused of lying, but when we post evidence on the net our opponents fall into 'self-righteous' mode and ignore all the evidence put before them.
So, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind posting some URL's to contradict the above evidence I have posted?
Thank you.
This is a comment on a post currently running on BNP home.
The title of the post is:
"This why I'm a racist"
This is how savages look, Completely devoid of compassion, Sympathy or respect.Morally bankrupt monsters killing and destroying every thing in their path.Life has no meaning regardless of its form.Society, Art and education are meaningless.They choose to live like animals of the lowest form clinging to hate and death as their only scale ofself worth.Their future mirrors their past, They were savage beasts 1500 years ago and the future is the same.They seek to bring all things to their level instead of climbing out of prehistoric anarchy.They are the epitome of self loathing, To lazy and to stupid raise the bar just one more notch.They hate themselves so much that their own death is the only thing they look forward to bring them happiness.They create nothing, They better nothing, They add to nothing but despair.They are the lowest form of life on earth.They are muslims.
I'm not sure, but I think the above comment is racist, or am I being a little sensitive?
or am I being a little sensitive?
I think 'stupid' is the word you're looking for.
Just trying to help you get over yourself!
To thank me visit
bfbwwiii.blogspot.com
I'm not sure, but I think the above comment is racist, or am I being a little sensitive?
Well since muslims aren't a race its impossible to be racist towards them.
If you look at the pictures it's hard not to hate them all.
Brb: Try this link from the BBC for starters. I have go out and do some work, but I will link more later.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/activities/rwb_event.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/activities/rwb_event.stm
telling racist jokes does not necessarily make you racist. laughing at those jokes does not make you racist either.
I like 'an englishman, an irishman and a welshman' jokes would I am not anti-british.
As for the music, who cares where they performed? If they are good then it will be entertaining which is what RWB is for.
300 people went to that RWB. That must be many years ago. recently the BNP have had thousands go.
During the undercover documentary on the BBC, someone shouted, 'Twat some Pakis.' Is that racist?
Someone was also boasting of putting either urine or human excrement through the letter boxes of Asians. He found this very funny. Racism?
http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/uncovered/pg04.htm
http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/uncovered/pg08.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party#2004_BBC_documentary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party#History_of_the_party_and_claims_of_repudiating_racism
And yet more BNP lies:
http://www.shazmalik.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=2
You remember that BNP documentary? well it was a setup from the beginning. The BNP regional organiser was a plant by searchlight. They admitted this on bbcnews the next morning when there was an interview. What they didn't say was that it is the regional organiser that chooses the candidates and that regional organiser chose the most racist people he could find. Any decent regional organiser would have shot them out of the party like my ex regional organiser did when a member was spouting racist language. We didn't want that kind of person in the party so the regional organiser told him to leave and confiscated his membership card.
But what about the other links?
Well I believe they are all lies but I haven't read them.
please quote anything you would like me to address and if they say something about our manifesto please show me where in the manifesto it says that.
btw wiki cannot be classed as a good source. anyone can edit it.
AA
None of the URL's you have posted prove the BNP to be liars, every URL you provide is from a known anti-BNP organisation (BBC, StoptheBNP, etc)and the content is simply the opinion of the author.
By contrast the URL's I posted are the results of official polls which show increasing public hostility to further immigration.
My original request was that you provide some evidence to contradict those polls, you have failed to do so.
I rest my case!
Bfb: You really are amazing. You really do believe your own propoganda. The URL's I posted do prove the BNP is a racist organisation. All you do is gloss over what you don't want others to see and focus on something you may have a chance of winning.
I called the BNP racists and I stand by that. It is not an insult; it is - in my view - a matter of fact. You abused me in a far more personal way. YDKM does not do that. You are someone I would not have a drink with, as you cannot engage in any argument without resorting to personal insults. I don't know you - and correct me if I am wrong - but you seem the perfect thug. I will fight in every democratic way possible to expose the BNP for what they are.
Let me tell you something about myself. When I was 11 years old, my father was made redundant. He worked on the railways for nearly 25 years. Before that he was a Salvation Army Officer.
In 1993 he suffered a heart attack, then a stroke and then another two heart attacks. He has been ill off and on since then. Two years ago - just before his 70th birthday - he nearly died of heart failure.
I am not some smug tory who hasn't lived. I know the realities of life. Before you spout off your usual BNP abuses, try and get to know about the person you are talking to. All I have tried to do in the past two days in engage in debate. If you are incapable of having intelligent and honest debate, then please tell me; although I think I already know the answer to that one.
BNP members are trying to hide behind a smokescreen and you are doing very well at the moment, and are conning a great many of the electorate. This will not continue. You are only successful thanks to Nick Griffin. He will hang himself one of these days and then you will be exposed even more than you are now, for what you are.
I do not believe that all BNP members are racist. i do, however, believe that a large number of BNP policies are racially motivated.
I am willing to change this view if I can see evidence to the contrary. However, some of the comments here have not raised the BNP (or it's membership) in my eyes.
If you are not racist, and do not believe that the BNP is racist, then the best, and only, way to convince me and many many others is to discuss the issues in an non-inflammatory manner.
bfb - if you believe that someone has insulted you, the best thing to do is act like an adult and not insult them back, but to refute their argument in a calm way. You have not done this here.
If you want the BNP to be taken seriously and not dismissed as 'racist', then it is YOU who have to make the effort. Many will call all BNP members racist; I believe that that is a mistake. But the onus on proving it lies with the BNP members themselves.
AA said:
"I will fight in every democratic way possible to expose the BNP for what they are."
I happen to watch BBC's Crimewatch fairly regularly - I think I've watched most episodes since Fiona Bruce replaced the late Jill Dando in 1998 or 1999.
My memory won't be perfect but I can't recall a single reported case where an actual BNP member or bona fide supporter was wanted for any kind of racially-motivated crime such as may feature on the programme, insofar as extremely few, if any white Briton on non-white or foreign white crimes have actually been highlighted on CW.
(I know BNP member Kev Hughes is serving a sentence for an alleged offence of that kind but Kev's conviction was and is a complete stitch-up. The BNP Legal Adviser reported on the BNP Forum that neither the evidential nor the legal burden was satisfied in Kev's case. Kev was simply gaoled for being a member of a legally constituted political party, which happens to be the BNP.)
Back to Crimewatch, the last episode reported an Asian individual who violently assaulted and almost killed a white Briton van driver. The word "racial" was not even mentioned.
But crimes of this sort, in addition to sexual assaults by non-whites or foreign whites against white Briton women and girls, are repeatedly reported - including one black rapist who terrorises pensioner ladies and has clearly targeted white victims. Although these crimes aren't 'racist,' either, according to CW.
(CW didn't even refer to the murder of Sikh Bob Singh by 4 Albanians as 'racist.' They kicked him to death and broke his skull in 18 places but the pc-BBC only regards the BNP as 'racist.')
The BBC even admits, if tacitly, that non-white on white Briton killings are so common in London(istan) now, they are not even 'news' - whereas the murder of black teenager Anthony Walker in Liverpool in July 2005 by white Briton druggies was both 'racist' and 'news' and therefore received much more publicity than the fatal stabbing soon afterwards of white Briton Richard Whelan by a black man on a London bus.
The BBC responded to complaints about the disproportionate amounts of publicity as follows:
"Racially motivated murders... are rare events. They are unheard of in this area of Liverpool.
"Unfortunately, senseless murders in London are comparatively more common."
i.e. If the murderer is non-white and the victim is a white Briton, the murder isn't 'racist,' only "senseless" and "comparitively common," according to the BBC, at least in London(istan).
As I think you'll appreciate, my point is that, discounting its staged documentary, even the BBC cannot find one serious 'racist' BNP criminal to feature on its premier crime documentary, with widespread public involvement, in almost the last decade.
Despite being so desperate, to the point of fanaticism, to target the 'racist' BNP that it will play down or gloss over 'racism' in any other context, to the point of absurdity.
And as indicated, in addition to not being able to locate any serious BNP criminals, even Crimewatch cannot disguise the disproportionate numbers of non-whites or foreign whites featured on the wanted list for serious and/or violent crimes - such as those described above - at least 50%, by a conservative estimate.
Moreover, the BBC conspiracy scheme to implicate BNP leaders in alleged 'race hate' crimes, which the BBC conducted in collusion with the West Yorkshire Police, the CPS and Searchlight resulted in an embarrassing failure that was of course quickly covered up.
Scanning through the StopTheBNP site you forwarded, the news appears to consist mainly of isolated malcontents who clearly don't characterise the Party, one BNP individual convicted of a crime for which no evidence exists (like that of Kev Hughes), one unfortunate BNP victim (ex-Cllr Clarke, with nothing said by STBNP about the racial intimidation she and her family were subjected to by local non-whites) and a fair number of potential agent-provocateurs.
As any genuine BNPer will reliably inform you, these latter are far from unknown.
All of which is in stark contrast to:
The 75 white Britons killed by non-whites in the last 2 years. (This figure does NOT include the 27 white Briton victims of the London bombing Muslim atrocity that claimed 52 murder victims in total - the work of 'good' Muslims obedient to their faith in successfully seeking to eliminate 'trinitarian kaferis,' i.e. 'disbelievers.')
The 8 white Britons killed by white foreigners in the last 2 years.
versus the 5 non-whites, including Anthony Walker, killed by white Britons in the same time period.
Allowing for an approximate population breakdown of 86% white Britons (probably not as low as that - yet) versus the rest, that gives a ratio of (83/14)/(5/86) = 102.
i.e. A non-white or white foreigner is at least over 100 times more likely to kill a white Briton than the reverse.
So, just who are the 'racists'?
You may not wish to drink with BfB and maybe the feeling is mutual but you would statistically be a lot safer in his company than in that of any ethnic minority stranger.
P.S. The BNP is not successful simply because of Nick Griffin. You are unreasonably discounting the high level of professionalism and dedication that characterises the Party at national, regional and local levels*.
*Including Group Development Officer Sadie Graham, a personable young woman physically and verbally assaulted on the streets of Heanor, Derbyshire in 2005 (or 2006) by a STBNP supporter who was caught on camera by Sky News - and subsequently given little more than a slap on the wrist by the local police plus a token fine - probably paid for out of Searchlight funds.
But credit for burgeoning BNP success should also be given to the corrupt Westminster cabal responsible for the multiculti mess and the immgrants and ethnic minority members themselves.
To quote Nick Griffin at a meeting I attended in summer 2005,
"They are our best recruiting sergeants."
All the indications are that their recruitment endeavours will proceed with alacrity.
Bfb: You really are amazing. You really do believe your own propoganda.
Correction. I believe the results of the polls I posted above as well as what I see with my own eyes.
The URL's I posted do prove the BNP is a racist organisation
Rubbish. At best they prove there are still racist elements within the party and that you have a childish tendency to tarnish all BNP members with the same brush.
All you do is gloss over what you don't want others to see and focus on something you may have a chance of winning.
More rubbish. I posted evidence to the effect that the majority of British people are sick to the back teeth of mass immigration and want something done about it. I then challenged you post evidence to the contrary, which you have skillfully managed to avoid doing (as I suspected you would).
I called the BNP racists and I stand by that. It is not an insult;
Who are you to determine what I consider to be an insult? When you describe people as racist you are effectively accusing them of hating members of other races for no other reason than that they are different. In doing so you make them targets for people who believe your allegations. This is precisely what does happen to BNP members almost on a daily basis; I know because my brother was a member and was assaulted by a black male while he was handing out leaflets.
you cannot engage in any argument without resorting to personal insults.
You are the one who started playing the race card, I simply pointed out that I found it insulting for the reason given above.
and correct me if I am wrong - but you seem the perfect thug
And you say I'm the one who cannot argue without hurling insults!
You really are amazing...(-:
I know because my brother was a member and was assaulted by a black male while he was handing out leaflets
Was he ok?
I have never had anything like that happen to me but the first time I went out leafleting the then regional organiser (who has since joined the english democrats) handed a leaflet to a women who then called us 'cheeky bastards' and ripped the leaflet up and threw it on the floor. I was thinking of telling her to stop littering and pick it up but I didn't want to get beaten up by a middle aged woman...
We have had leftwing protesters at our redirection point before before all chanting 'black and white. unite and fight. bash the BNP'. I would have thought that was instigating violence but the police that were 'supervising' the protesters didn't do anything. those protesters weren't to inclusive either. they only mentioned 'black and white'. no mention of yellow or brown people uniting and bashing the BNP. Not that there was any yellow or brown people anyway. infact there were only 2 black people out of a crowd of 30. someone should mention to them that they weren't being inclusive with their chants.
Thunderdragon:
Point taken. But I fail to see how my rudeness on occaisions confirms that I am racist. I also fail to see why people should be deterred from voting BNP simply on account of my attitude on this blog at times...have I said something 'racist'?
After years of being called racist by people who don't even know me I sometimes get angry, and this is reflected in some of my comments.
I make no apology for that.
Everyone in the BNP, can you please send me the link or manual you have from Nick Griffin. I would love to read it.
Bfb: You have called me a fascist, childish and have told me I am talking fucking rubbish. What a vocabulary you have. If you want to engage in a proper debate please address the issues I have raised. Now you admit elements of the BNP are racist. What about your leader?
I know there is something called an activists handbook (might be a different name) but I don't have one and you only get one when you go to an activists day and I have not been to one yet but I am due to go to one in february.
By the way, AA Con and Thunderdragon, I wonder if you would mind giving your respective definitions of 'racism' since you both seem certain that the BNP are motivated by it.
AA:Now you admit elements of the BNP are racist. What about your leader?
Nick Griffin is not 'my leader' (I'm not a BNP member)in fact I have argued on my own blog that the BNP would be better off with a different leader due to NG's anti-semitic past, which only gives ammunition to people like you to to attack the party with.
As for having racist elements within the party, I seem to recall a Tory MP saying a few weeks ago that most crimes are committed by blacks (I can supply a URL if you wish because I reported it on my blog). Does that make the Tory party 'racist'?
bfb asked have I said something 'racist'?
He had previously said in this thread my brother was a member and was assaulted by a black male while he was handing out leaflets.
Why is the fact that he was black important enough to be mentioned, bfb? Isn't it enough to say something like "this bloke hit my brother while he was leafleting?"
The BNP is constantly called racist. You are bound to get people of other races attacking the BNP for the simple fact that they have bougt into the media propoganda and they think that they hate them and want to deport them on mass.
Race was important here.
Oh, and bfb, can you explain how your remark about African "rubbish in the form of savages" to a previous thread on Central News could be construed as non-racist?
he wasn't talking about all africans. just the ones that cause a lot of problems which is a lot.
he wasn't talking about all africans. just the ones that cause a lot of problems which is a lot.
Bfb, you said that without moving your lips!
dont ya mean he did it without moving his hands?
you can't type with your mouth, well normal people don't anyway.
YDKM, it's very good of you to answer on bfb's behalf. Do you not think he might have done better to make that distinction clear in his original comment?
Bfb, what do you think?
you have no idea how people talk on comment boards do you?
people don't say:
"rubbish in the form of savages... oh I mean only some africans of course.. the ones that cause the problems are the problem. I in no way think that all africans are piles of rubbish"
I don't think I have ever read a disclaimer on a comment.
ian:
I will address all your comments in due course, I am busy at the moment. I don't spend all my time monitoring this blog.
Bear with me.
I will address all your comments in due course, I am busy at the moment. I don't spend all my time monitoring this blog.
Bear with me.
No problem, bfb.
YDKM, you have no idea how people talk on comment boards do you?
Don't you mean "type"?
I would have thought anyone worried about being wrongly labelled a racist would heap on the disclaimers if they were ever going to use a phrase like that.
Point taken. But I fail to see how my rudeness on occaisions confirms that I am racist. I also fail to see why people should be deterred from voting BNP simply on account of my attitude on this blog at times...have I said something 'racist'?
I did not say that you are a racist; I don't know whether you are or not. I was saying that you were failing to argue your case well because of the vitriol in your posts.
A racist is someone who discriminates against someone because of their ethnic background.
ian:Why is the fact that he was black important enough to be mentioned, bfb? Isn't it enough to say something like "this bloke hit my brother while he was leafleting?"
My brother was attacked by a black man who thought my brother hated him for being black.
In this context the racial aspect of my comment was not only acceptable but entirely relevent, as a thourough re-reading of my post will confirm.
Ian:"rubbish in the form of savages"
A reference to the Somali community here in Lambeth (where I live)who have turned this part of London into a savage land.
I have been told by more than one police officer that crime among the Somali community is getting out of hand, and that riots are expected very soon. Note that 'Somali's' are Muslims, and my comment was referencing Muslim Somali's rather than Africans as a whole (perhaps I should have made this clear in the post you refer to but I don't always have time to so specific).
You seem to be implying that this comment reveals some hidden 'racist' tendencies on my part: in my defence I refer you to the following blog, which is the result of more than 15 years work on my part:
http://pyramidworld.blogspot.com/
It consists of nothing less than praise for the ancient Egyptian people who built the Great Pyramid at Giza in Egypt.
I am so proud of the work presented here that I even have a link to it on my nationalist blog (Battle for Britain).
Thunderdragon:I did not say that you are a racist; I don't know whether you are or not. I was saying that you were failing to argue your case well because of the vitriol in your posts.
Another fair comment.
The 'vitriol' in my posts is not without provocation. I wish I was 'Cool Hand Luke' but I'm not.
A racist is someone who discriminates against someone because of their ethnic background.
In what respect do the BNP discriminate against people because of their ethnic background?
Please explain!
AA Con:
Waiting for your definition of 'racist'.
Do you have one?
Bfb: Yes I do have a definition of racist. It is someone who discriminates against others because they are a different race or belong to a different religion.
You have dealt with Nick Griffin and I agree with you with respect to his anti-semitic views. But holding those views does make him a racist, and therefore the BNP do have a racist leader. There is no doubt at all about that.
My father is still very much alive and kicking, although his mobility is limited.
There is one thing we can agree on. When Muslim extremists protest outside Westminster Cathedral and shout death to the Pope, they get away with it.
If I was to stand outside a mosque and shout death to Muslims, I would be in front of the Magistrate before I could catch my breath.
It is wrong. The law should be employed equally.
I also agree with you when you say we can no longer talk about race. This is a freedom of speech issue. If you read my blog, you will know how much I am concerned with erosions on that area.
I wish you no malice and thank you for your reply. I am sure there are many areas we can agree on.
Bfb, my turn to be busy, today, I'm afraid. This is a long comment, in appreciation of your finding the time to respond to my earlier questions. I'm not seeking to win cheap debating points, here, but to explain where I'm coming from, and why I still have my doubts.
My point about your brother's assailant was that there are plenty of people who viscerally dislike the BNP because of the policies they associate with it. Sure, almost all black people hate the BNP because they believe you hate all people of colour, but then many white people loathe the BNP for the same reason... It's all too easy to imagine a person of any colour being driven to violence, not that I would condone them.
I'll take a look at the link you provide when I have more time. What I want to observe now - and I accept it may not be relevant to you personally or to that site - is that just because a person can admire one "race" - not that I like using that term - it doesn't mean they don't harbour prejudices towards others.
Bfb, You are evidently genuinely offended by accusations of racism. Can you see that for many people outside the BNP, your party has been associated for years with racist attitudes? Blogs like this are an opportunity for you to change our minds, and frankly, I would love to believe that there is one less bastion of racism in the world. But the defensive attitude of some commenters here, and their careless use of language, really doesn't help matters. For example, the term "savage" has a history dating back to colonial times of being used to belittle Africans, and I think needs to be used with extreme caution if you are not to be misunderstood, especially in contexts like this.
Another example in your reply was your talk about Somalis being Muslim. Why is that important? I'm not blinkered, I accept that all sorts of people are capable of either goodness or evil, and I have no problems accepting that there might be a high level of crime among Somalis in Lambeth. (My assumption would be that there are sociological reasons for this, as opposed to racial or religious reasons, unless there is sound evidence to the contrary. But, again, don't take that as me condoning criminal behaviour.) But I'm not a regular commenter here, I didn't know you live in Lambeth, I don't know the situation there. You clearly do live there, but what might seem to you to be obvious and so not worth specifying takes on great significance for those who don't.
New Labour understood that the onus was on them to convince some voters that they had genuinely changed. So the language they used changed. They also offered the grand gesture of rejecting Clause 4. What gesture can the BNP offer to convince the likes of me that it has sincerely rejected its former racist opinions? The onus is on you guys.
What gesture can the BNP offer to convince the likes of me that it has sincerely rejected its former racist opinions?
Labour changed clause 4. The BNP got rid of forced repatriation when they elected nick griffin as leader.
Ian:My point about your brother's assailant was that there are plenty of people who viscerally dislike the BNP because of the policies they associate with it.
Point taken! But the reason the BNP are hated is because they are continuously denied the oxygen of publicity whereby they would otherwise be able to show the electorate that they genuinely have put their racist past behind them. Anyone who saw the supporters outside Leeds Crown Court should realize that. They were not 'knuckle scrapping neanderthals' as the MSM portray BNP supporters/members, but ordinary people concerned about the direction the country is going in.
Another reason they are hated is because of the tendency of of people like AA to brand the party racist just because Nick Griffin has an unsavoury past. I know for a fact that every effort is being made to rid the party of racists and extremists because NG expelled my brother for expressing extreme views to other BNP activists via emails.
Can you see that for many people outside the BNP, your party has been associated for years with racist attitudes?
Primarily the fault of the MSM, although I do appreciate that the BNP are not entirely blameless. As I've said, their effort to clean up their act is genuine as is evidenced by the sea-change in the sort of people it now attracts, such as ballerina Simone Clarke who is herself involved in a mixed-race relationship.
I would love to believe that there is one less bastion of racism in the world. But the defensive attitude of some commenters here, and their careless use of language, really doesn't help matters.
Bad language hardly amounts to racism, though I take your point about it not helping matters.
the term "savage" has a history dating back to colonial times of being used to belittle Africans,
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought it meant someone who is uncivilized, and that is the context in which I used it.
Another example in your reply was your talk about Somalis being Muslim. Why is that important?
Because Islam and western democracy are not compatible. I have read the Koran from cover to cover and cannot understand how anyone would choose to subordinate themselves to this backwards religion. I respect the right for Muslims to be Muslims but anyone who thinks that slitting an animal's throat is a humane way to kill it lacks the basic compassion that sets humans aside from animals.If you've visited my Battle For Britain blog you will know that I feel just as strongly about animal rights as I do about the right for all citizens to express their views on any subject without fear of persecution. Most Muslims would be happy to see the BNP banned, that is neither civilized nor democratic (although I appreciate that it isn't only Muslims who would be happy). Democracy and the right to free speech is being eroded in Britain, as well as other countries, in order to appease Muslim extremism, hence the trial of Nick Griffin and Mark Collet. I cannot think of any other religion that has such an impact on our once-democratic way of life. Can you?
As far as I'm concerned Islam is not welcome here, though I fail to see how that makes me racist.
New Labour understood that the onus was on them to convince some voters that they had genuinely changed.
They have changed, for the worse. I consider them to be the most oppressive, least democratic government Britain has ever had.
What gesture can the BNP offer to convince the likes of me that it has sincerely rejected its former racist opinions?
For me the best gesture would be for Nick Griffin to stand down as leader. Not that I dislike the man - on the contrary, I salute his courage and conviction - but his unsavoury past is providing opponents with ammunition to attack the party with.
OOPS. Sorry for the 'italics' error, if it helps I'll re-post.
its ok bfb you don't have to repost if you don't want to.
I don't think nick should stand down any time soon. If he stood down it would trigger an internal battle between the three groups which are the old BNP, the present BNP and the reformists of the BNP. While the BNP may need tiny bits of reform we can do it with Nick in charge.
I do think by the time the BNP gain power he wont be leader because he will either be too old or have been replaced.
ydkme,
I don't think Nick 'should' stand down - he's doing a salutory job and I don't know of anyone better -I just think it would take a lot of pressure off the party if he did.
Personally, I put him up there with my hero Enoch Powell.
I'm sorry, but associating Enoch Powell with any views related to the BNP is completely and utterly false.
Believe me, I know. I wrote my undergraduate dissertation on him - the specific question being "was he racist?"
There is NO comparing his views with the BNPs.
I did not compare Nick Griffin to Enoch Powell, I simply stated that I admire the former as well as the latter.
Since when were you an authority on Enoch Powell?
I don't claim to be, why do you?
The fact that you wrote a dissertation on the man hardly qualifies you to dismiss any comparison between he and Griffin. The fact is, they are both notorious for having the courage to speak out against immigration and it's attendant social problems, such as the oppressive laws designed to suppress discussion on the subject.
dragon,
You are obviously consumed with hatred for the BNP (with or without Griffin as leader) which negates anything you have to say about them on the grounds that prejudicial views are tainted by the person expressing them.
In your case, you would not say a good word about the BNP if Jesus himself was their leader.
That much comes across in your last post.
drag on:I do not believe that all BNP members are racist. i do, however, believe that a large number of BNP policies are racially motivated.
For example?
Bfb:their effort to clean up their act
is genuine as is evidenced by the sea-
change in the sort of people it now
attracts, such as ballerina Simone Clarke
who is herself involved in a mixed-race
relationship.
And yet Alanorei on your blog suggests
that Ms. Clarke is not the sort of member
he wants to see, for that very reason...
href="http://bfbwwiii.blogspot.com/2007/01
/bnp-racist-not-according-to-
ballerina.html">He said there:My
response would be, "Thank you Ms Clarke
for your political support but you have to
appreciate that neither your 'partner' nor
your mixed-race offspring can ever become
BNP members. The Party can never be seen
to be even tacitly endorsing either
miscegenation or illegitimacy.". As of
noon, Jan 8, you hadn't responded in any
way. It would be possible to contend that your "tacit
endorsement" of his view doesn't help your
protestations of non-racism.
Bfb, this thread: As far as I'm
concerned Islam is not welcome here,
though I fail to see how that makes me
racist.
Well, that's not a view shared by BNP
Home, for example. Not if the title
of the post Daily Referendum cited is
anything to go by. I know YDKM claims it's
not possible to be racist about members of
a religion, but do I really need to point out to you all the skin colours of
the vast majority of Muslims? Anyway, is
religious prejudice any better than
racism? Is every aspect of every strand of
Islam to be condemned?
The pictures BNP Home links to are
unpleasant, I agree (although not as
unpleasant as the motivation for
publishing them). But would pictures taken
inside a British industrial farm or
slaughterhouse cause you any less upset?
Would you go on to draw conclusions about an entire nation or its majority religion as a
result?
My point about careless language was not about swearing, I don't mind that, although I agree with you that just slagging each other off gets us nowhere. It's that, given the history and reputation of the BNP, you really need to think about the impact of the words you choose to use. Bfb, I do believe that you genuinely don't see yourself as a racist, but all I have to go on are the comments you make (and don't make: see above) to various pro-BNP blogs, such as this one. Can you see why I might think you need to make more of an effort in this regard, and why I might not yet agree with you on that point?
I'm no defender of New Labour, I also
think they are disturbingly retrograde and
oppressive (so that's two things we can agree on, at least). I merely raise them as an
example of a party that made a significant
gesture to persuade voters that the change
they claimed to have undergone was
genuine. Enough people believed them to
vote for them. If anything, the
restrictions on our liberties are intended
to suit the people in power, not as a
concession to Muslim extremism. It's a
handy excuse for them, though.
You say the BNP could ask Nick Griffin to
stand down, but will they? You say he's
one of your heroes - is that despite his
overtly anti-Semitic past? How does that
square with your opposition to racism? Will Mr Griffin ever come out with an unambiguous repudiation of racism, or will he hide behind the claim that the MSM wouldn't cover it anyway?
Oh, hell. I thought I'd hit preview. Do you want me to repost for clarity's sake?
Bfb, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...
And yet Alanorei on your blog suggests
that Ms. Clarke is not the sort of member
he wants to see, for that very reason
Alanorei is just one member. Most members are probably against interracial marriage though. Being against interracial marriage does not make youn racist.
I know YDKM claims it's
not possible to be racist about members of
a religion, but do I really need to point out to you all the skin colours of
the vast majority of Muslims?
We aren't against them because of their skin colour. if we were why would we be forming alliances with hindus and sikhs?
Anyway, is
religious prejudice any better than
racism?
Yes it is. You cannot choose your race but you do choose what you believe in and whether you follow a paedophile or not.
Is every aspect of every strand of
Islam to be condemned?
Not everything. I like that they have to pay zakat which I think is the word for the tax which is 2.5% of their income which goes to the poor. Other than that I don't see anything else that is good in Islam.
Ian, I will respond shortly, busy at the mo, and a lot to respond to.
Please bear with me.
Phil (BFB).
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